BAD MARKETING - The Goblin Costume

[Hot_Toddy]

I do agree that the "new look" of the Goblin costume is disappointing, but not at all surprising from a marketing standpoint - especially when talking about a Marvel Comic property. Marvel Comics have not exactly been brilliant in recent years allowing themselves to become a marketing driven company rather than a industry leader in the visual story telling medium. Telling good stories with groundbreaking visuals was what the company was founded on, yet marketing executives forgot this in recent years finding it more important to put Spidey on Spaghetti-O's than in good story telling. They've proven this by teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, only to try to claw their way out using the same lame-brain marketing schemes that got them their in the first place. With the exception of the X-Men Movie (not that it didn't have it's flaws), Marvel has churned consistently terrible translations from the pages to the screen (large or small) for as long as I can remember (and I've been an avid bystander since the 70's). From laughable movies (Captain America, the Punisher, the Fantastic Four) to the eye gouging costume translation of Dare Devil from the Incredible Hulk reunion movie (remember the blind "ninja" look), marketing executives have been destroying the visual content put in place by well respected and talented artists for years now. To think it would stop now just because a studio came up with some cash to finally put Spidey on the big screen is not only naive, but also sad. Fans of the property have a duty to teach people in marketing positions valuable lessons not only in what we will except as quality products for our hard earned dollar, but also to stay the hell out of creative content decisions. Marketing people are not creative - they are salesmen trying to convince you to buy into their bad ideas - which most of them are - BAD IDEAS. If you don't like the Goblin costume don't buy the action figure, the t-shirt, or the movie comic when it comes out. Boycott anything and everything with the Goblin's appearance. Don't be a geeky fan-boy (or girl) and get it "just to make your collection complete" or because "the Green Goblin is my favorite character...". If you truly love the character, but hate what marketers have done to the imagery - ignore the Goblin in its every guise and concentrate on the character marketers didn't screw up - Spidey. The war on bad marketing and the hopes of faithful translations between media starts with the fans. Don't let marketers tell you what you want - not at any cost.

[rekraPreteP]

While I agree that the GG's costume isn't all that great, you've got to take into account that few movie folk ever make the translation smoothly from comic to movie. Some costumes just don't work in real life (Thor for example) and sometimes they figure they can update them for a new audience. And yes, they drop the ball in this dept. just as they have with superhero movies in the past (Batman, for example).
However I do disagree with you on certain things. For one, Marvel didn't become the company that it is today just for character design. Marvel turned the industry around in the early '60's with its psychologically complex characters (most notably Spider-man, the epitome of the Marvel Age). Raimi assures us that this is going to be a major focal point of the movie, and that's an entirely Marvel thing to do.
As to Marvel's poor offerings in the past, Fantastic Four was never released. Corman finished the pic because the studio wanted to keep the rights for a while (it never made use of them, obviously). It was done on a lousy 4 million dollar budget, and Corman spent a fair share of it on himself. He didn't get to be the king of the B movies for nothing. Punisher and Capt. America were two other direct-to-video offerings, so they hardly count as major motion pictures. As to the unfortunate Incredible Hulk 'movies' again these aren't theatre releases, didn't have huge budgets and the poor quality is in -very- stark contrast to the regular show, which is probably the best superhero live-action show ever. I certainly prefer it to Witchblade and the teen-angst Smallville.
Now let's look at Marvel's offerings for the actual silver screen. Putting aside the Republic Captain America movie serial, their first real major motion picture was Blade, a successful movie by all accounts. Keep in mind that their first movie is about a third-string Marvel character, that even casual comic readers barely know. A far cry from DC's fixation on Superman and Batman.
Then there's X-men, which you'll agree had to be made sooner or later. This is the first superhero team movie of the Big Two, and they did -very- well, even casting a great Wolverine (no small feat).
Also keep in mind that they've batted 1,000 in there animated motion pictures (Transformers and GI Joe: The Movie).
In contrast DC, a company owned by the largest multimedia company in the world (including movies and cable networks) hasn't really been able to move past Superman or Batman after TEN FILMS (the other two being Superman spin-offs), and there's no team movie from them in sight. Also, despite DC being owned by a cable network that puts their shows on TV, they have competition on their own home grounds with Xmen Evolution.
Imagine what Marvel could have done by now had they had the resources available to them that DC does.
So, as far as I can see, Marvel's done a spectacular job thus far on the movies that they've actually made to be released in theaters, and despite the poor costume design for the Goblin (and keep in mind that it might look entirely better once it's seen in motion, etc.) I have no reason to believe that Spider-man will suck, or even that the Goblin will suck. After all, Batman's black rubber suit was pretty lousy, but Keaton made it work.
I have faith in Raimi for an action flick like this, and I have faith in the -very- accomplished Willem Dafoe to pull it off. Spider-man's a great story. They've got all they need.

Just my .02,
Rick

[woosyJ]

I think we all agree to the dubious choice of costume for the goblin. I was understandably shocked when I first saw the pictures.

Apart from the commercial issues (previously discussed in detail by the two postings before this) that may have spawned this 'big' mistake (IMHO), lets have a look at the point of view of the fans. Make no mistake, this movie was made for the fans. We fans will probably watch the movie at least twice and we'd all probably buy the DVD. But there will always be this bad taste left inside all of us... why was the goblin's costume done like that? While I do agree that it may look better on film than on print, one must consider the fact that so far, NONE of the Spidey fans agree to the coice of costume for Gobby, purely for sentimental reasons.

For a movie made for the fans, the choice of costumes was a bad one. And commercially, well, I don't see Gobby figurine sales hitting the roof. Even worse, the regular 9-year old might actually think that Gobby is cool and was really meant to look like that!

We may never know the reason for Gobby's costume, so why don't we be grateful (for now), that we have a movie at all. It will be a good movie, no doubt, but yet again, it won't be the best adaptation like its predecessors.

[rekraPreteP]

The way I see it, kids coming to Spider-man for the first time probably won't expect him to be just like he is in the movie. They learned that lesson with superhero movies of the past. Bane isn't a Hulk knock-off as he's portrayed in Batman and Robin. The Kryptonians costumes weren't so, well, for lack of a better term, -flamboyant- as they were in Superman II, and in X-men they even pointed out the difference between comic and movie ("Well what would you prefer, yellow spandex?") Kids with an IQ of 3 or more have already guessed at this, and chances are, they'll be looking for the Goblin comics well before they see the movie.
The costume is growing on me. The original pic looked terrible, but the wallpaper is quite different. Apparently the goblin glider's wings move indepenently of each other, which is pretty cool.

Using common sense when it comes to superhero movies, I'd say they're being pretty faithful, especially considering other efforts of previous comic movies (Check out the online interview about all the trouble they went to with the Spidey costume). Heck, look at Superman's rebuild-the-great-wall-of-China vision, or his hand-beam blasts in Superman II. Is Spidey making up powers? Probably not.
The Batman movies aren't much better. Batman runs around in a black rubber costume with -nipples- no less. As comic movies go, Spidey's been very fiathful thus far when you hold it up against similar efforts.

I'll get the DVD, and I'll see the movie more than once. I'm looking forward to it, and as a loooong time Spidey fan, who really wants them to keep to the comics, I feel they're doing a pretty good job, all things considered.

Just my .02,
Rick

[D_Jedi]

I just CANT believe people are just SO desperate for this movie they´ll even end up liking that garbage-for-a-costume... make no mistake here i´ve always been a HUGE spidey fan... but this is too much, who are they trying to kid here!!...poor Goblin, that thing looks just like a Power Rangers villain rip-off... and what shocks me most is that anyone that knows Dafoe, will know that he is really perfect for the Goblin part...his face is just perfect for the role!...and ruin it with a giant, out of proportion helmet?? not to mention the suit... the only thing lookin good here is the glider, and if you ask me that is just NOT enough...
I cant believe it i just cant...i can assure you he will DEFINITELY not look good EVEN in motion... darn, I dont think the wait was worth this...if this is the way they gave us the Goblin I just cant imagine how they will give us Venom somewhere in the near future... with a gigantic robot that destroys everything throwing toxic liquids??... ha, to think I thought it would be even better than Star Wars...if you ask me, i´ll probably be watching that movie in May...and i KNOW im not the only one...

[rekraPreteP]

The way I see it, the costume isn't so bad. Yes it could've been way, WAY better, but it's certainly not as bad as it could have been, and definitely not the worst costume in superhero/villain comic-to-movie history. The costume's oversized helmet is based on Japanes Kabuki masks, not Power Rangers villains (think Tekken's Yoshimitsu) also, it looks like he'll only wear it when he's flying around. In any case we have yet to see a single clip to really judge it.

As for Dafoe, did anyone really expect that they'd use his face in his Goblin role? Even the comic Goblin wears a full mask. What counts here (and what really makes Dafoe perfect for this role) is his acting ability and delivery. There's so much more to the appearance of a character than his costume. Heck, look at Nicholson's Joker. Practically anyone else would look ridiculous with that get-up, but Nicholson delivered a great Joker, commenting that all you have to do is "work the suit". Same goes for Keaton's black-rubber Batman.

The glider DOES look great, with articulated wings and it'll be great for the fight scenes as Raimi says that it flies with a mixture of snow/skateboard and jet flight. Say what you will, that glider will sell a lot of GG action figures.

As to how it will look in motion, I assure you, it will look much better. Look at Ray Park's Toad in the X-men film. The promo pix were just plain lame, but when it came time for him to actually DO stuff, it was a whole different animal (pun intended). A large part of a character's actual look is what the actor brings to it, with body language, skill of action, and line delivery. It's far more than just what meets the eyes in a static image.

Was it worth the wait? Only time will tell, though Marvel's been batting a thousand with their big-budgets thus far, and if there's one guy who knows action flicks, especially stuff in this category, it's Raimi. Stan Lee's been on-site for this one as well, so I have confidence in it. Certainly much more confidence than I had in Superman III or IV or anything past Batman I.

Venom? They probably wouldn't mess with his costume at all. I imagine they'd go CGI (see: Spawn) for the shapeshifting properties. Still, this being Spidey's first movie, they HAD to go with his archnemesis.

As to Star Wars, after the rather flat Episode I, for the first time ever, I'm really pretty indifferent to the next Star Wars movie. However I AM looking forward to the Spidey film. Yes the Goblin costume is different and lamer than it could have been, but it's hardly the first, or the worst case of this to happen in superhero films, and that includes superhero films that were actually really great.

As for me? I'm seeing the film, seeing it again, getting the DVD, and probably a fair share of the merchandise. FINALLY Marvel's in a position to actually do the sort of stuff that DC's always crowed at them about (make movies about their characters) and I'm going to revel in Spidey's well-deserved success.

Just my .02,
RIck

ha, to think I thought it would be even better than Star Wars...if you ask me, i´ll probably be watching that movie in May...and i KNOW im not the only one...

[rekraPreteP]

Obviously the last little bit of my message is part of D_Jedi's, and not my own. Personally I'm looking forward to Spidey and Lord of the Rings far more than the next Star Wars (and I consider myself very much the Star Wars fan).

Just my .02,
Rick

[woosyJ]

Rick, looks like we will need the Darth Vader holding your neck in a vise grip to get you to change your mind about how bad gobby's costume is, haha. In my opinion, as long as the costume provides the flexibility and fluidity of movement, I will be quite happy. In a way, Spidey and GG's movements should be fairly similar due to their physique (in the comic). Both should be slim and slight of build, and have quick razor sharp reflexes. GG's costume just doesn't convince us of that. But well, let's watch the movie (or new trailer) and make our judgements then. Do you know of any site where I can download the old trailer which features the WTC?

I myself am looking forward with great anticipation to the Lord of the Rings. I've read the trilogy twice and I just started re-reading Fellowship for the 3rd time... I've been waiting for the movie to be made since I was a teenager being able to appreciate Tolkien's work. I really hope it lives up to the hype!

[rekraPreteP]

Well, like I said, it's not a great costume, but the fact remains that it's hardly the worst comic-to-movie costume ever (I'd give that to either Batman and Robin's B&R costumes, or the Phantom Zone villains' duds in Superman II). I don't have a major problem with GG's costume that's all.

Looks like the final Spidey costume is pretty much a dead ringer for the comic costume, based on the new clips though.

Just my .02,
Rick

[nvoid]

The Spidey costume has grown on me but they should have stuck with Alex Ross' original designs for the Goblin (if not Spidey too). To view them go here Alex Ross costume designs (http://www.alexrossart.com/archives/Spidermovie.htm)

[Hot_Toddy]

For the last couple days now I've been sitting this out and watching patiently as a bystander after my initial posting. I've read a lot of very good points and a couple not so good points. After reading through the replies thus far I noticed one comment made by WoozyJ about how we ought to deal with Rick and his blind admiration for a design concept that has obviously been made at the expense of the true artistic intent of the comics for the sole purpose of selling a more marketable action figure to fan-boys world wide. I've read Rick's comments more than once - as to not glaze over what he has to say concerning the choice for director (I agree, Sam Raimi is top notch), what had made Marvel such a viable force in the industry (not just the character designs, but the good story telling - something I initially stated, although Rick chose to ignore this comment), and also that we should be lucky to be getting a Spidey movie at all (anything Marvel could bring from the board room to the public is a miracle in itself).

What I have noticed from Rick is that he seems to have a royal bone for Marvel comics. It doesn't take a genius to come to this conclusion. The considerable bashing of everything DC Comics is the first big clue. The second is his consistent need to stick up for a bad marketing decision based on his need to "be lucky enough" to be getting a Spiderman movie made at all.

I think I found my example of the type of fan I had mentioned initially to try to NOT be like - the kind that will take anything that Hollywood hands him, regardless of how it looks or feels, even if it's ten revisions away from the original design intent - all for the sake of getting his precious two hours of escapism. Even if it were not exactly what a true fan would have hoped for.

Don't get me wrong; I understand that if we had put Wolverine in yellow and blue tights he would have looked ridiculous. If Robin had worn the nylons and little Peter Pan slippers we would have all laughed ourselves silly - understandable. I still think that the Tim Burton designs for the Penguin are far more interesting than the classic designs that made Chester Cobblepot look like a buffoon in the comics. Sometimes liberties must taken to enact a smooth transition into our three dimensional reality - just not at the cost of design integrity and never to have what we "sort of" want out of a movie we've all been waiting for.

Fans need to speak up not only before something of this magnitude is produced, but also after in what we choose to purchase by way of merchandising. If we left everything up to marketers the Flash would have been wearing a gray jogging suit rather than the famous red suit (yes, something a boneheaded marketing executive wanted to do for the ill-fated series). Sometimes you need to push the envelope a little to make the fantastic a reality. Could you have imagined the diminished impact Spawn would have had if they wouldn't have bothered to create a CGI'd cape for him? The point being that these characters are supposed to be larger than life, with their exaggerated features and abilities - fans want to see this in our reality - it's part of what makes the comics so much fun – thinking “what would that look like if it were real”. It's the idea of making the unbelievable believable.

Again, I applaud all who question the decisions made, but keep and open mind about the process without allowing themselves to become fooled by business decisions that affect the creative content of the original artists. The goblin costume might be great when animated on celluloid – then again it might not. All I’m saying is that when you start settling for an image that a business man hands you because it’ll be a good marketing move come next Christmas, you might as well brace yourself when NSYNC or Britney Spears is on the soundtrack because that will also be good from a marketing standpoint too. Hey, who knows, maybe Rick will be lucky and they’ll come out with the Spidey-wing or the Spidey-mobile to add to his collection. Wouldn’t that be cool? How ‘bout the Spidey action figure in gold and blue – you know, some kind of super-thermal Spiderman. Ya… I think you get my point.

[rekraPreteP]

Wow, looks like Todd has far more issues than I do...

First off, I'm not saying that the Goblin design is great, merely that it's not the worst I've seen, and that even a really bad costume design doesn't mean a bad movie. Superman II, X-men, Batman and others have had bad costumes and still were really great comic-based movies.

As to not reading all the post Todd, it looks like you're not doing it either, as you're ignoring several things I've been saying, and as to Marvel needing a 'miracle' to bring anything from the board room to the public, I'd say it's a lot less miraculous for their Distinguished Competition, which happens to be owned by the largest multimedia giant in the world. Still, Marvel got a superteam movie out in their -second- big-budget film. DC's had TEN big budget films thus far. When is the 'miracle' of DC bringing a JLA or JSA or TItans or what-have-you film from the board room to the public going to happen?

As to my evidently having a (and I use this term with disgust) 'major bone' for Marvel, you're misjudging me, something that you're chiding me for doing. I happen to like and own, several DC superhero films. Thus far, Superman I is my all-time favorite superhero film (John Williams, Christopher Reeve, Gene Hackman, what's not to like?) and the Keaton Batmans are also right up there.
I also am certainly not blind to the massive load of **** Marvel had in their low-budget films. NIck Fury, Fantastic Four, Punisher, Captain America.. I wouldn't give a dime for them. Marvel's first real big biudget films however have done very well, and deservedly so. However you seem to mistake one's ability to like one company to mean that one dislikes the other. Just as I acknowledge faults in DC's films, I can also acknowledge faults in Marvel's. As for big-budget flaws, Marvel's only had TWO films, and I pointed out that they messed up with Toad (and I should have also mentioned Mystique) but DC's had TEN big-budgets, so of COURSE I'll be able to mention more flaws in their movies. They have more movies to have flaws in, and more chances to really have bad movies. Anyone can see that Batman and Robin was plain awful, and Xmen 3 or 4 has every possibility of being just as lame.

And as to my "consistent need to stick up for a bad marketing decision based on his need to "be lucky enough" to be getting a Spiderman movie made at all." I'm certainly not saying that. I said that though the costume design is bad, it doesn't mean that the MOVIE will be bad. I even mentioned other movies with bad costume designs that were great superhero movies. Heck, Superman II had bad costume designs, made-up powers that Kryptonians don't even have, and a cellophane logo-trap for Supes himself, and I -still- thought it was great. Keaton's Batman had a black rubber suit, and I -still- put the Keaton movies on a pedestal. Superman I had a -very- poor costume design (and base, and comic relief sidekicks) for Lex Luthor, yet I hold it up as my all-time favorite superhero flick. Mystique and Toad were TOTALLY different and Mystique was lame (thogh sexy) and it was still a great team movie.
Will Spider-man be merchandised? Of COURSE it will be. So were the Batman flicks. So was X-men. So will pretty much every superhero movie from now 'til doomsday.

I love how you're trying to tell us what and who 'true fans' are. I consider myself a true Spider-man fan. I agree that the costume for GG is bad, but I accept that superhero movies often, and practically always, have massive costume changes, whether it has to do with making a real-life version of a costume (Robin, Thor, and others simply wouldn't work) or simply for merchandising's sake (as is the case with Batman, Toad and GG) or because of the designers' vision (as is the case with the Phantom Zone villains, or Mystique)

I agree with you. If I had my d'ruthers, I'd have him as close to the comic version as was feasible, but he isn't. While this is unfortunate, a long line of poor costumes in great superhero movies tells me that this isn't so big a deal as to ruin the whole movie for me. Spider-man himself is pretty much exactly like the 'real' thing and that's far more important. The reason why superhero flicks with bad costumes work? Everything else is working for it. There's the actors (Macguire and Dafoe, two accomplished actors by any estimation) the director (Raimi, 'nuff said) the FX (Dykstra, again the name speaks for itself) and so on. I look at the GG costume as unfortunate, but it's not the worst costume transition in comic-book movie history, nor will it ruin the movie itself, as many good superhero movies have shown.

That said, check out Spawn. That movie had costumes that were as exact as exact could be, yet Superman I, with a -very- different Lex Luthor and co. dressed like a cheap lawyer still is ACRES better. Yeah it's unfortunate that Lex looked lame, but it's really not that big a deal. As superhero movies go, Superman's the top of the ladder.

As to 'speaking up' the film is in the can, and they're not going to change the costumes and re-shoot. Yes it's unfortunate that the GG looks like a Power Ranger villain, but the fact remains that this doesn't mean the movie will be lousy.
As for merchandising, I could care less. If you're going to be bothered by a different costume, then you'd have to skip buying merchandise for practically every major superhero movie out there. X-men had lousy costumes. Superman I-IV had bad costumes, Batman I-IV had bad costumes. About the only good costume jobs in the majors were Blade and Spawn (and Blade only because there was just one actual costume in the movie). Well, I imagine you could also include the Phantom and the Shadow, but again, if you're going to chide superhero movies for bad costume decisions, then you're not going to go to too many movies. 'True fans' can look past the realities of Hollywood altering things like costumes, because anyone who's seen Superman or Batman, or even X-men can tell you that faithful costumes aren't all that big a deal (particularly villain costumes). They're great to have, but they're in no way dealbreakers.

You seem to think that I like the Goblin costume. I don't. I think it's lame, but it's not as lame as some of the comic-to-movie translations. That's all I'm saying. Do I approve of it? No. Will it keep me from seeing the movie? No. Might NSYNC or Britney Spears appear on the soundtrack? Who knows? Prince and Seal appeared on Batman's soundtracks. Neither the first two or the second are deisrable as far as I'm concerned (I figure they should just let John Williams do all the music for every superhero film) still, I don't think Raimi's going to have them in the film.

Let's see. What else has he been ranting about... Ah yes...

"Hey, who knows, maybe Rick will be lucky and they’ll come out with the Spidey-wing or the Spidey-mobile to add to his collection. Wouldn’t that be cool? How ‘bout the Spidey action figure in gold and blue – you know, some kind of super-thermal Spiderman. Ya… I think you get my point. "

This of course has nothing to do with my views on the movie itself. Will it be merchandised? Sure it will. So was X-men, so was Batman, and if Superman was around today, it'd get merchandised to death too. Am I worried about it? No. All I'm saiying is a bad costume, while unfortunate, doesn't mean a bad film, nor does a great costume, or even a faithful translation, essentially guarantee a great film. Both things help, but as we've seen, they aren't be-all end-alls (particularly in the case of the villain's costume).

Just my .02,
Rick

[woosyJ]

nvoid,
Alex Ross is a real talent, but I do not really like his rendition of GG (scaly skin and all). His spidey also looks like an Alien...

Now, let me stress that this is my opinion, and what I perceive GG or Spidey or any other character to look like and what I want him to look like will be different to someone else. Which is basically what this discussion between Toddy and Rick is about.

It's about opinion. Toddy you're throwing a personal attack at Rick for voicing his opinion = 0.02$. Heck we're all putting our opinion online. This is the essence of a forum.

Let's all put differences behind us and watch the film before making our judgements. See you all again on May4th. I wonder if we, here in Malaysia, are going to get to watch Spidey on opening night.

[diamondchild]

SAY what you want I agree with hot toddy 100% and i say we refuse to pay good money to the people(sony pictures) that sold us out i think we should let them know now if they dont invest in making some changes before they release this film they can count on being the only ones willing to pay to see it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[deathscythe]

You people are freaking nuts!! Why is everybody getting so worked up about this? The GG costume looks like crud, but Nicholson's Joker in the first Batman looked like **** too! Am I the only one who thinks it comes down to the performance? Jeez.......